Posted by Professor Walsh in News | 25 Comments
Ask A Jedi: The Mandalorian Mistake
If you spend any time on the official Star Wars: The Old Republic forums, you are sure to have seen his passion and prose regarding all things Jedi. You know him as Professor Walsh. Each week (or thereabouts,) Professor Walsh will answer a few reader-submitted questions in order to enlighten us all with the ways of the Jedi. You can submit your own question at the end of the article!
Hello everyone! Professor Walsh here…. Time for another edition of Ask A Jedi!
This week pickings were a little slim, I guess everyone else had questions regarding the dropped embargoes or something. However, I did get a nice spattering in my inbox this week, so I decided pick one of the more interesting ones.
Our first question comes from a poster at the official TOR forums, and he has asked that he remain nameless:
“Hey Professor, I’ve recently gotten into Star Wars books and I just read the “Legacy of the Force” series. I’m confused. When was it established that Boba Fett had killed more Jedi than anyone else?”
Well Anonymous, this one is actually extremely good, and I had to gather a lot of sources to answer it… Meaning I have spent a lot of time on this one question and the answer is a long one. So if you need to use the bathroom or want something to drink, you might wish to do so before you continue to read on. I’ll wait.
Are you back already?
Good, let us continue.
Now, to start with, all I can say is: “Welcome to the writing style of Karen Traviss.”
Who is Karen Traviss and what does she have to do with this? Well I am about to get to that.
Karen Traviss is a former Star Wars author who is most well known for her contributions to the Star Wars line in the form of the Republic Commando series as well as one of the three authors who worked on the Legacy of the Force series. She also has a real fascination with Mandalorians and their culture which has prompted her to create a fictional language for them. She also has never read a Star Wars book that she didn’t write.
Wait… What?
Yeah, that was about my reaction too. Karen Traviss never read Star Wars and knew very little about the canon. So she turned the Mandalorians (who were previously depicted as very blood-thirsty, honorable, space Vikings) into a group of peace-loving farmers with strong family values that only fight when they have no choice and whose only flaw is that they love their people too much.
Traviss also has a serious dislike for the Jedi and the Sith. She sees the Jedi and the Sith, (and no I am not making this up, it was actually heavily discussed by her on her own blog,) as kind of the Star Wars version of the Nazi party. She saw them as a “Master Race” group who believed that people who didn’t have their abilities were lesser beings.
In Karen’s mind Boba Fett, Jango Fett, and the Mandalorians were part of a mysterious trinity in Star Wars of the three most powerful groups: The Jedi, the Sith, and the Mandalorians. She claimed that the Mandalorians kept the Jedi and the Sith in line and were awesome because they didn’t have the Force.
Karen Traviss, in her novels, had every character (even ones who had no reason to) speak or think in Mandalorian, revere Mandalorians, and be in awe of Mandalorians. This included, but was not limited to, Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade Skywalker, Jaina Solo, Han Solo, Leia Organa Solo, Jacen Solo, and pretty much everyone else. She received so much criticism about this behavior that she frequently got into screaming matches with Star Wars fans and participated in flame wars on various message boards and her own personal blog. She referred to fans of the Jedi as Nazi sympathizers and dubbed them, and I quote: “Talifans”
In the Legacy of the Force series she forced in Boba Fett and the Mandalorians. They did not need to be in the series and were, from indications of the other writers, never intended to be there. She regularly took the time to show the superiority of the Mandalorians by indicating that they could easily have killed Darth Caedus and by bad mouthing the Jedi as the, again I quote: “Bathrobe Brigade”
Then the debacle you mentioned happened.
Jaina Solo, after having decided that she had to take down her brother, decided to get special training. So she went to Luke Skywalker, her uncle and the Jedi Grandmaster, who had defeated Jacen Solo in the previous book, and asked for his permission to go train with Boba Fett and the Mandalorians because, in her words, he had killed more Jedi than anyone else and she needed to learn how to defeat Jacen Solo. Luke saw her logic and agreed with her plan to learn from the Mandalorians because they were the only people who could teach her how to defeat Jacen Solo.
Note: I am not misrepresenting the above facts either, that is indeed what happened in the book.
Common sense would state that she would learn from Luke because he had just beaten Caedus. Instead he can only think that the Mandalorians are so much better at it than he is and thus he tells her to seek out the Mandalorians. That part of the book gave me a migraine at the sheer amount of mental gymnastics that were required for that to make any sense.
So Jaina packs her things and heads to Mandalore.
On Mandalore we learn a number of things that have no bearing on the main story at all. The Mandalorians have discovered a massive vein of Mandalorian Iron, super metal that can stop lightsabers (though not anymore in canon) and is better than any other metal. This will allow them to become the most powerful faction in Star Wars as it will give them the best armor, weapons, and space craft.
In fact the book spends a huge amount of time going on about Mandalorian Iron. What does this have to do with the rest of the plot to the Legacy of the Force?
… Absolutely nothing.
I’m not kidding here readers; this had nothing to do with the resolution of the series. It was simply done so that the Mandalorians can be established as one of the most influential factions in the modern day of Star Wars. It was like reading a massive batch of filler where plot should have been.
So, on Mandalore Jaina Solo is beaten silly by Mandalorians, mocked by them to the point that she literally broke down in tears, and is made to question everything about the universe including the Jedi.
Jaina is completely flabbergasted by how armor and weapons that could block lightsabers “changed the game” of combat. The Mandalorians also have a super-technique that can let them disappear from the Force. Together these two factors, armor that can stop lightsabers and the ability to not be felt in the Force, completely confounded Jaina who had no idea how to handle it.
Now, the above might make sense if the book series “New Jedi Order” had not been read.
In “New Jedi Order,” the Jedi and the Republic faced off against the Yuuzhan Vong. A race of invaders who could not be felt in the Force and who had lightsaber resisted armor and weapons. Jaina became a battle hardened Jedi fighting them and developed the techniques to deal with them.
Yes, that is correct. Jaina Solo, the Sword of the Jedi. The person who developed the techniques used to fight enemies who had lightsaber resistant armor and weapons and who could not be felt within the Force had no idea how to deal with enemies who had lightsaber resistant armor and weapons and who could not be felt within the Force. This is because Karen Traviss had not read the New Jedi Order and did not know the lore and the back story of the character she was writing.
So having all of that explained I can now get back to the original question.
When was Boba Fett established as the grand high king of Jedi killing?
Never.
Boba Fett has never been shown “on screen” (meaning in any novel, comic, game, movie, or TV show) to kill a Jedi. He claims to have done it, yes. He has a lightsaber, but that isn’t proof of anything nor does it speak of the volume or the quality of his opponents.
If we go on the evidence that we do have, such as the battle at Jabba’s sail barge in Episode VI, it is clear that Boba Fett has very little experience actually fighting Jedi. He makes every rookie mistake in the book, up to and including jumping into melee range while holding a blaster with a Jedi wielding a lightsaber. There is no reason to believe that Boba Fett has killed more Jedi than anyone else, it was just Karen Traviss not understanding the source material, continuity, or canon of Star Wars.
I’d love to hear your thoughts below, especially if you’re Karen Traviss.









even if i am a fan of the “Mandalorian culture” i think Karen took to much liberty with legacy of the force the republic commando books were good and mandalorians were not to much “over powered” over the jedi and sith. In legacy of the force she did a power trip and now all mandalorians are in “god mode” she should have sticked with the space viking.
Now that i remember she is working on a halo book set after halo 3 i am scared, i hope she will at least play the games or read the books this time… and wiki is not so bad if you want a good summary.
Yeah, I agree. I usually learn a lot about lore from the Prof and this one threw me. I am a fan of the Mandos but… she definitely took it out of bounds.
also, she did not took the time to think about the numbers if i remember correctly in her books she said the clone army had something like 1.5-3 million troops, it’s non-sense considering the U.S. army today (i am not american btw) with 1 500 000 troops.
my point is:
1 500 000 troops = 1 country
3 000 000 troops = 1 galaxy
mathematically this dose not scale right.
Your forgetting that a great number of battles in the Star Wars universe take place in space, not to mention that they were cloning troops that took 10 years to mature, and it was only after they realized they needed more that they switched to the shorter maturation clones that still took at least a year to develop.
Wow I had no idea she did that or thought that way about Jedi/Sith! LOL I learned a lot today. At any rate I actually liked the RC Series, because it presented the Jedi/Sith from a different perspective and it was one which seemed to very much parallel the way the galaxy viewed them by then anyways, (Order 66) so it didn’t seem entirely unfair. But I had no idea about her darker side, in the Legacy Series. All I can say is wow that is pretty messed up…SHE is the scary one…(ref to her blog that was linked)…seriously…. I unfortunately am one of the people who didn’t really know much of Mandos until RC Series, but the way she portrayed them in the series diverged strongly from what I did know. Canderous Ordo is a much more accurate depiction of “real” Mandalorians, but I can definitely see how the two portrayals of Mandalorians and their culture can coincide, for the most part. Therefore, I am still a fan of Mandalorian culture as they do have “a rugged sense of honor and strive for self-improvement.” (paraphrased quote from swtor time line) However, I am a much more educated fan than I was LOL. Oh and I wish the splinter group following Mandalore the Preserver would have survived, but surely there must be some survivors of that group, as individual Mandalorians in the game, who knows maybe they’ve started to reemerge…it would be nice if they would become more Republic/Jedi allied as their culture seems to be more of a Grey line between honorless butchers and honorable warriors. LOL but alas, their biggest trademark has been their vaunted independence…..they just tend to get manipulated by the Sith a lot…cuz they can appeal to the darker side of their culture better than Jedi can, LOL. I kind of hope the Jedi Knight ends up having a Mandalorian Companion some how.
Just learned something new today. I knew how bad Karen had trashed the Jedi and the pedastal on which she had placed the Mando’s. I was warned by several friends and fansites to avoid her work. Just the mention of her almost turned me away from this article and now I wish I hadn’t read it. :P
It’s no wonder everyone and their son wants to be a Mando. I never understood why so many people WORSHIPPED them. Thanks Prof.
Hopefully most people (like me) were fans of the mandos before learning of this debauchery. ;}
I was a fan before they were just “Normal humans with a mildly different culture and special spaztastic armor”.
You know, when the Sith War meant the near-collapse of the republic under the assault by three armies (one made up of the Mandalorians).
I have to say, if you’re a writer and you spend a lot of time in a universe if you have info available but choose not to your either the most insane or idiotic writer ever… But it seems to me that there were 2 mistakes made. 1 she was arrogant enough to think “I will make up my own information” in a universe full of canon. 2 Why Lucasarts allowed this writer to butcher, literally in the case of some star wars heroes, the lore.
There is no sense in it. I understand they have since parted ways, I can only hope that someone went “wtf? We let this happen? Dear god get me that phone I need to fire the hell out of some people”.
There are polite rules if you’re working together in a universe with other writers… One is don’t force feed your views in… Another is don’t disregard other people’s work for your own rules. As someone who has ghost-written and also partnered in some pre-established lore worlds I find what was done here was just insane. I would have tossed my pen down in horror if this had happened.
As to her reaction to the fan’s…. Anyone knows you don’t “Ahem” where you eat. Or in more polite terms, don’t turn on the fans, they buy your books and put food on your table.
Yup I totally agree, I actually like reading books that completely differ to my own philosophy (but in her blog she states that most people don’t read anything but to confirm their own biases and that scares her, LOL sounds like she is one of them, not reading anything other than what she wrote? WTH? How can you possibly be a fair or balanced writer, a good one if you don’t examine the other sides point of view from their perspective?) because it gives you a different, healthier perspective and it can A)help you understand an opposing viewpoint (if you don’t go in with the mentality to refute/disagree with everything they say from the start) B) help reconfirm or bolster what you believe, because of what your opponents say/how they present their arguments, and/or C) show you that you might be wrong, or that your views could use some adjusting….. I am primarily a Jedi Knight/Light Sided, self sacrificial type of a thinker, but here are the Star Wars books I’ve fully read (that I can think of off the top of my head): Star Wars Cloak of Darkness (I think that’s the title –> one with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon before Ep I, the death of Obi’s classmate and then the second half having Obi training Anakin and Obi’s past comes back to haunt him –> unless I’m getting two books mixed up), Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, Rule of Two, Dynasty of Evil, Republic Commandos: Order 66, Star Wars: Fatal Alliance and I think there is one other Jedi centered/protagonist book that I think I’ve read but can’t recall currently. I want to read the other books in the Republic Commando’s series, I’ve thought about Deceived, but I think I’ve got a healthy dose of the darkside with Drew Karpyshyn (sorry Drew I have to copy and paste ur last name via Google search most every time LOL, but I too have a very hard to remember last name for most people it seems) and I absolutely, positively HAVE to read REVAN!!! As he is my favorite Star Wars character of all time!
No, not, because he was a very powerful Sith Lord and a courageous, bold, practical Jedi, but because he walked down both paths of the Force and survived…he isn’t the epitome of evil but he is also a far cry from the ideal of good at times…he came back, because of Love (Bastila) and brought her back through the same means as well. It’s just an Epic story with incredibly deep and thought provoking characters. I can’t wait to see how Drew brings him out in Revan, even if it doesn’t line up completely with “my Revan,” because Revan isn’t really my character at all, I just want to see how the writers envision him, but I’m pretty sure Drew’s portrayal of Revan would probably coincide well with how I interpreted their character to be….CAN’T WAIT!!!
“… peace-loving farmers with strong family values that only fight when they have no choice and whose only flaw is that they love their people too much.”
What a load of biased bollocks.
Let’s put some reality into this. Yes, she wrote *some* of them as having farmer backgrounds — pretty natural for a largely undeveloped world. She also wrote about others who were quite technological; like the guys working at MandalMotors.
Peace loving? Nope. You seem to have that confused with the flavour of Mando’s that the recent Clone Wars series unveiled. And that had nothing to do with Traviss; infact she quit BECAUSE of the peace loving Mando’s in that series.
The moral of the story being, if you’re going to put yourself up on a pedestal as being able to answer people’s questions, why not try and answer them correctly and without bias? Otherwise, why bother?
Nope, I’m afraid your wrong here… Check out all the story before you judge. Yes Clone Wars added to the Mando Canon but it was already stated prior to this as well.
I couldn’t stand the Traviss novels and I’m glad she’s no longer writing in the Star Wars Universe. That’s really all I have to say.
See, here’s the disconnect I have: I absolutely love the RC books, and the culture created for the Mando’ade. They definitely weren’t peace loving, I think this is a misconception based on the fact that Kal and the other Mandos he was close to were all tired of fighting someone else’s war. Especially in the sense that men, who he adopted as his sons (which, looking at his back story, you can see that as a reflection of his experiences vs. a normal Mando life), were treated as assets and had no rights as sentient being.
But then the LotF books… well, I had to stop reading those. To be fair, after the NJO, which I loved, the EU novels just became more and more… grandiose. They remind me a lot of the KJA novels and the period of the initial class at the Jedi Praxeum, where in each book and author, they try to one-up the previous author and story in terms of villians and story. It just felt very tired – “Well, we just defeated a super powered Sith ghost and sun destroyer and OMG THERE’S A NEW DEATH STAR. BUILT BY THE HUTTS.” (Though I may be biased, I was pissed at the cop out death they gave Madine, he deserved better.)
Anyway, point of all this: if we look at what she added to the Mando culture prior to LotF, I think it’s great. I choose to ignore the rest.
As bad as she is, I believe that Troy Denning is just as bad or maybe even worse because his rape-age of Star Wars goes unnoticed.
I understand the problems with karen Travis’s writing style but I also understand a need to create something cool to take on the Jedi. Mandalorians are cool. “All powerfull Jedi/Sith” get boring after a while. If she checked up on the lore she would have found out that Mando metal already existed. It’s called cortosis. She could have said that a Mando clan found a huge veign of Cortosis, on some obsure asteroid no one knew about and started making armor from it. No need to make new Mando Metal and annoy some people.
Cortosis isn’t “mando metal”, it’s a fibrous mineral that is highly resistant to heat and energy, however it is also very brittle. In it’s pure form it also shorts out lightsabers temporarily http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cortosis.
What you call “mando metal” is actually Beskar or Mandalorian Iron (since it is only found on Mandalore and it’s moon) and it is VERY different from cortosis and Traviss did NOT come up with it, it’s been around for quite a long time.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandalorian_iron
Before you decide to bash an author, you should really do some actual research.
Woooow, I’d pay for proof that she never shtooped GL.
I’ve never seen this badmouthing of jedi that this Prof. speaks of, and I’ve only heard the accusations hurled at her from angry fans who in my opinion believe anyone or anything that is shown to have strength even remotely equal to the jedi or sith is instantly a horrible idea and star wars blasphemy. I read all the republic commando books and I loved them. I never got the feeling she bad-mouthed the jedi, and for those that say she made them seem arrogant and that they thought they were better than others..have you ever seen the movies or played any of the games? Jedi are portrayed as being somewhat haughty and superior all the time, and it’s only a few here and there that are humble and down to earth (qui-gon, old obi-wan, luke, yoda..and thats about it) Karen Traviss is a fantastic author who got a seriously bum rap, she got screwed over big time, after writing what could have been just the beginning of a great series, the clone wars cartoon (which is ust god-awful) came out and destroyed the canon she had established with her books.
you don’t know what you’re talking about…
John, you are definitely a minority view.
“I read all the republic commando books and I loved them. I never got the feeling she bad-mouthed the jedi,…”
You didn’t notice the dozens of times Jusik and Etain mentally questioned the Council’s authority throughout the books?…
(‘¬_¬)
Ok. I never really knew her actual views on mandalorians because i don’t dive into the people who write them. I always liked Mandalorians and my liking of them jumped into obsession after i read the RC books. The only things i knew about karen was that she posted an entire mandalorian dictionary (which i have now) and that she made one of the mandalorians gay in the legacy of the force series… I did not read that series because of that. I am not a supporter of gays. sorry. but anyway I really liked the way she portrayed them in the RC books and I stick very faithfully to that ideal of them. I hate how they have made mandalorians into with the new Clone Wars series. its insulting and contradicts all the “canon” i knew and loved. for me. the Clone Wars series never existed.
I actually didn’t have a problem with introducing Fett (at least) into the LotF series; it was a nice touch, and “Bloodlines” wasn’t the worst book she’s written, in my opinion.
But after finishing “True Colors” recently, I never want to read another of her books again. >_<' I've felt the same way towards her, gushing over the Mandos and clones. I'm as much of a fanboy as the next SW-nerd, but LORD, did she go over the top….
Karen Traviss was only voicing the opinons of her Characters.
And lets face it,the rest of the people in the galaxy dont have the force, so why would they not regard the Jedi with fear and suspicion? I know I would if they were real.