Posted by ReDDoT in Blue Milk & Cereal | 34 Comments
Blue Milk & Cereal: What Do You Think Of The Loot Container System?
No day would be complete without the breakfast of Jedi: Blue Milk & Cereal. Every morning, the team at Ask A Jedi will get Force-induced thoughts coursing through your head with delicious issues from around the galaxy! Join in the discussion below to make your voice heard!
At this point, we know that Star Wars: The Old Republic will have raiding (known in TOR as Operations), which of course is an MMO end-game staple. But what will keep Operations interesting? Running with your guild mates? For sure. The challenges thrown at you? Most definitely. The story line that will grasp everyone? Very possible.
But perhaps the most appealing aspect of a raid to an MMO player is the idea of acquiring that new piece of gear – the loot. It keeps players coming back hunting for more gear to start or complete their sets. Some gear can be so unique and hard to get that it is exclusive to only a few players on a server.
And to make all of this looting fun rather than a chore, you need a fair system for loot distribution. It needs to be flexible enough to allow guilds to implement their own rules, while allowing all players present to have a chance at getting something from participating. A few days ago, Stephen Reid gave us some preliminary details on the “loot container” system that is currently being tested. Here’s the quote:
As it’s currently implemented, at the end of a key encounter within an Operation, upon looting a high-level opponent, everyone in the Operations group will get an individual container which has a chance to give you a random piece of loot that’s specific to your class. It could be part of an armor set, a weapon, and so on. If you don’t get loot, you’ll get commendations which can be used to purchase gear.
From this, we can see that everyone will walk out at least somewhat happy after completing a high-level encounter in an Operation. Of course, some will be more lucky as they might get a piece of a gear, but everyone will have a reward of some sort. In my opinion, this is a great change that will attract even more players to participate in Operations. They know they won’t leave empty-handed.
So what do you think? Is this a new, innovating idea? Or is it essentially the same old thing wrapped up in a new box? Will this solve loot disputes? Let us know your thoughts!
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I don’t currently see how it’s any different than WoW. Everyone gets badges, and a few people get gear/weapons.
This system removes any kind of rolling for an item.
Think of it this way.
WoW:
Everyone knows what items dropped.People start rolling or use DKP for it. Rest get badges.
TOR:
Noone knows what dropped. Everyone gets a container and individually loots. Everyone gets a chance of getting an item.
It’s actually similar to the WoW loot bags that you get when you run a dungeon not at max level. Except in WoW, you have a good chance of getting the same item over and over and over again in the same level bracket, or getting something with rediculous stats on it (I’m a warrior – why do I need spirit?). Hopefully, TOR will fix that little issue.
I’m sorry, my comment came out wrong, didn’t it? I agree with you that it’s different, simply because it’s for high-end flashpoints and stuff where normally you would be fighting over epic loot. I was simply trying to offer that comparison, then add that it’s different because it’s for the upper levels, not the lower levels.
Which, in my opinion, makes it absolutely awesome.
…I just hope the RNG likes me better with these than it does with the WoW holiday bags… Anyone want some snowballs?
plus it prevents ninjas stealing loot lol
I think this system will work out pretty good.
I hate the idea in its current form. BioWare is taking control away from the Guild and handing it solely to the players. Though at this time details on the system are so vague that it is hard to see the potential impact. If the raid bosses do not have loot tables, and gear is only from loot bags, that is a problem. If bosses have loot tables that is shared with the loot bags, that is fine.
You missed the interviews from a few European magazines which stated you could gain gear that would normally drop from bosses using your badges. This is by far the worst part of the system, as badges should be substitutes to gear, not the exact piece.
For further rambling on the subject, see this thread:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=404960
I don’t see either of these things as a problem:
1. Loot doesn’t need to be in the hands of guilds. Guild control over loot through DKP or other systems is, IMO, based on the flaws in other systems where guilds have to deal with it.
2. If you get loot from bosses, and you get badges from bosses, why should those badges get you something other than the same loot? If the badges come from other sources and can be used to purchase operation gear, then maybe that would be an issue. But if you get the badges from within the operation, why should it buy something other than what you really want from that operation?
1.) Operations are the top PvE encounters in the, as such many PvE and progression guilds will be doing them. For some guilds, any forward progression for any character is fine but for others it is a strategic process. Controlling who gets what is a big part of guilds. What I want to know is why BioWare has gone with loot bags for operations but not flashpoints. We already know flashpoints have an array of loot distribution options, why not have that for operations as well?
2.) Badges for every fight are a consolation prize for not winning the roll or not having what you need drop, etc. Badge gear being as strong if not stronger than raid gear destroyed WoW in Wrath. In BC the system worked fine, as you would go to a vendor and the item level was slightly lower. This way people can still get upgrades, but to get BiS gear, you need to actually kill the boss and get the loot.
Getting raid gear from badges does not help me as a guild leader. How do I know that you really killed the boss and received the loot? If what the UK article says is true, you may vary well be able to purchase gear from bosses you have not killed. This means I could farm bosses 4/7 and get badges to get gear for bosses 5-7. That is not a good system at all. This can be avoided by making “Boss gear” only available after you kill him, but I don’t agree with the way it works.
The loot bag system worked well for PQs in WAR, but those are public events not operations and major group encounters.
This still doesn’t mean that you just get gear. If you can only get commendations from downing bosses, then you are still doing your part to earn that gear. Obviously they aren’t going to give you enough badges from ones boss to get a piece of gear. But if downing a raid boss is the only way to get badges then the same piece of gear as I was looking for off that boss doesn’t hurt anything. Also it doesn’t mean that every piece of gear from a raid would be available to buy with badges.
As long as we keep the badges and the gear raid specific and only available from downing bosses we are just removing some of the randomness from gear drop… How many pieces of gear has my guild sharded because it was the same and every raid member had it? So many I want to cry.
you guys missing one element that is a bane to all raiders ninjas. this element is the most hated group of player plus the containers prevents ninjas from stealing loot from other players.
Well it seems to me it takes more pressure off guilds than WOW.
Being in a guild in WoW is almost like having a second job…there are schedules and everything.
These are freaking video games and I think the WoW RAID system takes the fun out of playing the game…it makes it a job.
I quit WoW for this very reason and am reluctant to play in any guilds as I cannot guarantee the commitments guilds need.
I feel this is a great system that will alleviate alot of pressure on guilds and a lonely player trying to get in on an operation.
Engrey says: “BioWare is taking control away from the Guild and handing it solely to the players.”
HOORAY!!!!
No kidding why as a player would i want the guild in control of the loot that is quite possibly for me? So that the guy who showed up 1 more time then me gets it and then quits the guild?
I clicked “Like” though “Love” would be far more accurate. IMO, Bioware nailed this one and I cannot wait for more info. I hope that bosses have group loot as well as bags, so that there are somethings that are under guild control, such as crafting schematics or mounts. Even if not, however, still seems all manner of awesome.
Very much agreed. I would love to be able to “reward” or otherwise distribute SOME loot in a manner determined by the guild, but the loot bag concept is one that I give two thumbs up.
I feel this is one of the most brilliant loot systems to date. I was always a light raiding player primarily because I hated going in and spending several hours in a zone only to walk out with nothing. This system gives everyone an equal chance to an item they need or at the least receive some compensation for their time. This also eliminates the presence of frustration and arguing in parties when one happens to lose a roll by one point. Not to mention this is an excellent solution to the whole “ninja” issue.
As wise user SorcererBiggz said yesterday… I need forums :)
Soon™
Oh good, because I don’t already spend enough time here or on the official forums… :P
Think I need too see it before I can definitively say.
If harcore raids are long, I am all for this. A two day raid that gives you little to nothing the show from it when you walk away is somehting I would like to see this game avoid.
If they are short, then you can argue either way.
Any raid can be finished in a day, it just depends how good the group is. Either way you are still relying on the RNG and with the bags you have a smaller percent change to get what you want.
There is no guarantee that the loot bag will have that armor, weapon, mod, etc that you want. You may even get the same item over and over, even if you already have it.
Instead of pulling from a boss loot table, you are now pulling from a class specific loot-table but with possibly more items in it. Keeping in mind you may only get badges during an entire run.
I really want someone to ask BioWare at Gamescon or PAX Prime why they are testing a system that takes control away from guilds (As the system has been explained currently). Does this help PuGs? Sure, but PuGs should never be able to complete raids. If they are very good players that is one thing, but random baddies should never be rewarded.
Sounds like you should keep playing WoW. I normally keep my mouth shut unless i have something good to say but man that sort of elitism stinks. It sounds like a great system especially if it makes EJ’s cry. Thats my opinion.
Bad players should not be rewarded.
Nobody wants to see garbage players walking around decked out in gear that only the best players have truly earned.
Call it elitism, I call it fair; I don’t want to see something I farmed for weeks to months being shown off by some scrub raid space-filler
I dont getr what your saying…At no point did I say bad players should be rewarded. I was replying to the statement that pugs should bever be able to complete raids…that is pure elitism. There is a reason there is more than one difficulty setting…The content should be available to most the population and hard mode can cater those 5-10% if the devs feel like it
LAWLS you have to down a boss in order to get the loot bag, so what your saying is that if pugs down bosses they shouldn’t be rewarded anything?
According to your logic only elite guilds should get high end content.
This is why WoW is ruined for me and I really hope they don’t do it to TOR.
I guess we have our soloing planet so you “gods” of MMOs can RAID all you want without us peons getting in your way.
engrey, your thinking in raid lengths in todays terms. If you has the time to beat MC in one day in Vanilla WoW then more power to ya. Three days of work with no loot for you was ok when raids like that were first intorduced, but I would be surprised if that worked with today’s gamers.
True, there may not always be somethig that you want in the bag, but theoretically there will always be something that your caracter can use (or at least equip). I have no problem with that as it puts the decision to use the item on the player and not the Guild.
In all I think SWTOR will not be built in the traditional MMO raiding sence and am looking forward to see what they have planned.
that is y elitism should never be around and i for one glad elitist like this guy will try and get their old “wow” style loot system so they can control the market of the crappy dkp system.
The idea here that everyone who runs the OP now gets rewarded for it is great. dosen’t take anything away from possibly having to farm the OP for enough badges to get your full set or all of whatever loot can be acquired from that OP. might possibly even bring back the idea of raiding for fun.(i know, horrors if that actually happened)
Well, that system sounds pretty awesome.
1. You have a bigger chance of walking away satisfied. No more ‘OMG only Warlock / tank stuff’. Yeah, you still might get nothing but commendations, but chance is bigger to get something cool.
2. No more problems like ‘OMFG, why 3 DKs?’ ‘WHAT? ANOTHER WARRIOR?’. The loot bag is yours. No competition here.
3. As mentioned, pretty good ninja countermeasure.
This sounds like a great thing, hopefully it will mean the death of dkp.
I don’t particularly like this system or WoW’s
This system could be even MORE frustrating than WoW’s (and trust me, I know what it’s like; I farmed Hadronox in heroic AN for two months to get his bloody tanking trinket). The notion of getting random class gear after downing each boss sounds cool until you get something that is for another spec or the same item or a downgrade item 4/5 times consecutively, and on the fifth time you only get a commendation.
I think there should be WoW-style looting where the boss drops sweet items for the master looter to distribute (takes care of the ninja problem Turrick keeps crying about) but everyone who participated should get credit given to their account for taking down the boss. If one particular boss drops something, and you CAN’T SEEM TO GET IT, you should be able to buy it with credits earned from THAT boss(and no others).
The only way these bags will not be a complete failure is if as you acquire items they are removed from the bags loot table. Let’s call these adjusting loot table bags “Smart Bags” and the bags that can drop the same Robe you already own over and over “Dumb Bags”
Say there are 10 armor items the bag could drop and there is a 10% chance an item drops at all (90% you just get credits/badges/commendations whatever). If bags are dumb then the first time you have a 10% chance at getting something you don’t have. What happens when you have acquired 9/10 of the items bags can drop and you just want that last piece of loot? The chance of it dropping is 1%. You are like 10x as likely to to get a duplicate of an item you have already dropped. If bags are smart then you would always have a 10% chance to get something new. If they give us dumb bags we either end up grinding 100s of bags to get what we want – which I doubt. Or you just end up buying that last item with commendations which means, everything will be purchasable. Then you end up with the problem of not wanting to buy anything with your commendations out of fear that the same item you just spent a week or two’s commendations on will drop out of some random dumb bag and you will feel like you just wasted all those commendations. Removing the items you purchase from the bags loot table also solves this problem of buyers remorse. If the bags don’t have a flat chance at getting an item you don’t already own/purchased/dropped then they are utterly broken and people will be begging for the predictability of dkp, epgp, skg, loot councils, or any of the other ordered guild run systems of loot distribution. Hopefully Bioware sees the necessity of smart bags.
-WOW has DUMB BAGS for Holiday Bosses and they were one of the worst additions to the game. I’d keep getting the same stupid item my friend wanted and they kept getting duplicate items of the thing I wanted.
Another analogy… Dumb bags are just like packs of trading cards with ITEMS YOU CANT TRADE!!!
I cant think of a worse investment in time than grinding away at dumb bags.