Nov 2, 2011

Posted by in Blue Milk & Cereal | 88 Comments

Blue Milk & Cereal: Is There A Need For Dual-Specialization?

No day would be complete without the breakfast of Jedi: Blue Milk & Cereal.  Every morning, the team at Ask A Jedi will get Force-induced thoughts coursing through your head with delicious issues from around the galaxy! Join in the discussion below to make your voice heard!

In a momentary lapse of reason, it seems that somehow we’ve never run a Blue Milk & Cereal on this topic. It’s one of the most heated in the TOR community (though I’m not sure why.) So let’s do it BM&C style!

One of the core principles behind a class-based character system is that different gameplay styles and combat roles can be represented through them. Since the dawn of (RPG) time, a wizard was a magic user and a warrior was a swords’n’boards type of character. And let’s not forget my personal favorite, the wily rogue who stalks his victims from the shadows! These archetypes have been extended over the years to provide variety but the core concept remained: different classes exist to have different roles.

In recent years however, designers have begun to build more flexibility into classes to allow players to potentially take on more than one role, although not necessarily simultaneously. To do this, you’d have to go visit a trainer in a city somewhere in order to “retrain” into another specialization which could let you perform another role.

In typical “give an inch, take a mile” fashion however, gamers started to complaint that it was too annoying to visit a trainer every time they wanted to re-spec, so the concept of “dual-specialization” was born. Simply, it allows you to store 2 different sets of skills/talents which you can switch between out in the wild (though not while in combat.) It’s definitely more efficient this way, but is it right for the game?

On the one hand, if they’re going to allow you to change your spec at all, then why not make it as easy as possible? On the other, it makes sense to have some kind of time cost, at least, to do this to help preserve the integrity of the classes themselves.

As far as Star Wars: The Old Republic goes, BioWare originally took the stance that it wasn’t needed and had no plans to implement it. Since then, they’ve flip-flopped on the issue stating that it’s something they want to have in the game.

Making it even more complex is the way that TOR handles Advanced Classes, which are essentially the “true” combat classes, each with their own set of specializations. They’ve said that you can switch your Advanced Class, but it will be a total bitch to do so. So common sense tells us that if there is dual-spec, you won’t be able to save a spec from your other Advanced Class. But back to the give an inch, take a mile syndrome – how long before that happens?

On the surface, dual-spec looks like a nice quality of life feature. But I encourage you to think about what it really does to the overall foundation of a class-based system.

So, what are your thoughts on the matter as it relates to TOR, or even MMORPGs in general? Should there be limits, and if so what? Fire away!

Should TOR have dual-spec available?

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  1. Let the game come out before we start fundamentally changing it. From what I’ve seen and read a dual spec is not needed nor am I a fan of the mechanic. It just dumbs down the game.

    • Old Bill Kenobi says:

      It dumbs down the game to be able to specialize in two different things? I don’t follow. How does it dumb down the game to learn to play 2 diffeent roles?

      • Players are so used to the WoW-model where talent trees were stacked to the point where it was impossible to have a spec that was good for both PVE and PvP.

        Who’s to say that there will be much difference in PVE and PvP specs in SW:TOR (or that they won’t in fact be the same).

        Another facet of WoW was that tanking specs were useless in PvP, something that won’t happen in SW:TOR due to changes in PvP mechanics.

        It’s possible that SW:TOR might have a perfect design where dual specs are not needed.

        • Lol, “It’s possible that SW:TOR might have a perfect design where dual specs are not needed”… really…? You’re the most hopeful person I have ever seen.
          Players who are used to the WoW-model will also be used to the SW:TOR-model.
          Also, while a spec might have potential to be useful in both PvP and PvE, it’s never going to be the best for either. Players want to have the best talents for a particular game-type and those interested in playing PvE or PvP at a high level will not have some hybrid crap. For players interested in playing both PvE and PvP or even 2 different roles, dual-spec is of enormous convenience. If you don’t like it, don’t use it. What do you care if someone has it?

          • I care because it dumbs down the players I’m stuck running groups with when my guild isn’t available whether that’s PvP or PvE. The result is someone that doesn’t maximize their time learning the intricacies of a particular build and thus is only hitting the high-notes of a build as opposed to mastering it. Just go look at WoW or even worse, Rift.

    • I dont think the game needs to be released to determine if dual spec should be allowed.

      Giving the player the option of changing their spec saves the frustration of having to re-roll the same class, in order to have the right spec for the job.

      Not having dual specing is not, in anyway, a deal breaker. It does however take a step back into old-school MMO mentality.

      I vote for making it free with no timer (no coin or stones required). Remember, this is all IMO.

      • Why reroll and not simply do with what you have? Isn’t that less complicated?

        But I agree with most of what you are saying here. It’s definitly a step back, but there is also good stepbacks. is it a good or a bad one? I don’t know.

    • I don’t want to look mad or anything :)
      But to anyone against it… you think dual speccing within your AC will change, hurt or ruin the immersion or your gameplay, then you should not play the game. At launch you will already be able to change spec within your AC for credits… even without the Dual spec feature people will be able to respec, so to bad for you. The dual spec feature is just a way to simplify the process.
      Anyone that has done PVP or Raids in another MMO knows too well that dual spec is very useful.

      I think people can’t say it enough: if you don’t like it, don’t use it!

      Anyway, how exactly giving other people this feature will ruin your gameplay… this just doesn’t make sense. And if it does ruin your gameplay for whatever weird reason, go on a RP server and create a guild with people that think the same way.
      Once you realize that the server has a ratio of something like 80% dps, 10% healer and 10% Tank and in a flash point you need 50% dps, 25% healer and 25% tank, theres gonna be a lot of ppl spamming the chat forever to get a group together for a flashpoint.

  2. It means that there will be fewer instances of spending three hours yelling “LF1M TANK” and not being able to do anything until you find that special someone.

    • And more instances of having a tank that has no clue what he is doing just to have insta queue…

      • iirc, there will be no dungeon finder at launch.

        • No, really? “insta queue” was just a generalization.

          • I knew people who did this before dual spec. They just went to a trainer.

            Personally? I was more willing to try and tank in Rift than in WoW although both have dual spec. Mainly because if I wasn’t getting the job done as a tank, someone else there also had a tank/healer spec and wasn’t afraid to use it.

  3. Once they allow you to switch from one AC to another, no matter how difficult of time consuming, IMO it is only a matter of time before it is free and simple in a patch.

    With regards to dual speccing WITHIN an AC, I see no negatives to that at all. It is a quality of life feature. Being able to level as dps and switch to your heal build for group content is a must IMO. I see nothing but positives in being able to store builds from within your AC.

    • I agree with this completely.

    • I agree with this completely. Also, where did they get their info about switching AC? As far as I know, that’s not possible yet and is only being considered.

    • as the devs have said you hava a companion you can level as a healer or a tank and not suffer, so unlike other MMO’s where that point may be valid its not here.

      also tanks and healers are perfectly fine for pvp where in other games tanks sucked.
      however i do see why someone may like to heal/tank in raids with their friends but may like to do dps in PvP and would not want to kepp having to respec back and forth.

      Dps might have a build they like for pve and a build they prefer for pvp and switch back and forth.

      so i see no reason not to have dual spec but would be happy also if its not in.

      • Incorrect, it is completely valid. I enjoy playing a healer in groups and raids and despise leveling as a healer..not because i am not powerful enough, but because healing a companion or relying on a companion is not fun. Healing in groups is fun. When I level I enjoy maxing out a dps build.

        Most players I know do not like using their support roles, healing, buffing, tanking..etc on npc’s they like doing it in the social circumstances of raids and group content with player characters.

        Dual spec within ACs makes as much sense in this game as any other mmo. I mean really..what current mmo can you not level as a tank? a healer?

        • If it’s all about doing what’s fun and what you enjoy then let the player switch between ACs too. What if you want to level as a gunslinger, but want to heal at end game? What if leveling as a gunslinger is how one would have most fun? Should they be denied the ability to switch to healing later on because they’re in the wrong AC? Should someone be forced to level within a particular AC they don’t enjoy because there is a healing spec in it they can use for later?

          • Wiz you and Pashtun both make great points. IMO dual spec is needed for end game and for those of us that raid should be able to understand why the flexibility of dual spec is there. End game wise I think that switching between ACs should be easy. Although while leveling you can only dual spec within an AC, but you may switch ACs at a costly consequence. The reason I say this is that I like to heal in groups and dps for leveling as mentioned before. With that said every AC has at least one dps role, so why not be able to utilize both specs within an AC at will. At the same time if you allow respec easily accessible throughout the leveling process it will encourage new players to experiment so they may find out what they like.

          • I hear what your saying, but you do realize the ability to respec is in the game, you will pay a few credits and easily change your spec within the AC..this is IN the game. Dual spec is just a quality of life addition to the design that is in the game.

            The issue of weather you can respec easily between ACs is still being decided within Bioware., and believe me if they allow it no matter how steep the price….a patch will come along and make it free and easy.

            So when I say I enjoy leveling as dps and healing in groups..both within my AC, the issue is not if I can do this ( I already can..its in the game) the issue is quality of life addition, why would you not include this? To me it makes no sense.

        • You don’t have to sit there and just heal your companion, you send your companion in and you dps the mobs, as you said “not because I am not powerful enough, but because healing a companion or relying on a companion is not fun”
          it wont matter you are not in a dps spec you will still be able to kill the mobs efficiently with your companion helping then after a few fights use your rest ability that heals yourself and your companion at the same time. Just as any other player would have to do, as for relying on a companion is not fun, this game is full of them, dps will rely on them to heal them or tank, tanks will rely on them to dps or heal them, healers will rely on them to dps or tank for them. Yes you can solo without them but you will not reach your full potential unless you use them. There is no getting away from that. My point was that Bioware stated the companions as a reason Dual spec would not be needed while levelling.

          Is dual spec instead of respecing a plus yes ofc it is but its not a must have, its just a perk which they are looking at putting in after launch. Healers in other MMO’s don’t generally have a pet/companion so your argument would work there. Here the answer is you can respect or you don’t have to because of said points.

          • So why are you opposed to a dual spec? I don’t understand your position. Of course it doesnt have to be there..hence quality of life addition. Your points support this. No reason to not have a dula spec.

  4. Abner Ford says:

    I voted no. I’ve never been a fan of dual-speccing, but I’m also a bit more unforgiving in my thoughts on game design. But in an RPG, you create an identity for your character. I don’t believe in being able to completely change that identity on the fly, and I believe that decisions should have real consequences in addition to the advantages. Otherwise, they’re not really decisions at all.

    I understand and have already come to terms with it being in (although I hope it’s not a priority post-launch). But I don’t have to like it. When you can have it all, what do your choices right now matter?

    • My main argument against this stance is the following. If someone doesn’t want to dual spec (for whatever reason) they don’t have to. No loss to them. If someone wants to identify with your character’s progression and being able to swap doesn’t make sense in that scenario, then don’t swap.

      IMHO, just because a feature is there doesn’t mean you have to use it. Since I only get about 3-4 hours per week to play, it would make my game much more enjoyable to have this feature. Especially because, for me, playing MMORPGs is much more about the MMO than the RPG.

      My $0.02

      • Darn, I was leaning towards not now, but maybe post-launch. Adam’s counter argument reminded me of my view on countless rl issues, so I’ve change to a yes! use it if you want… don’t if you don’t

      • Abner Ford says:

        Very fair argument, and that’s certainly a stance that can be taken. My only counter-point to that is if the design team goes forth with a decision for dual-speccing to be in there, they have to enter their talent design choices with that in mind. They have to tailor their talents with the thought that they can make leveling paths that can be just PvE or PvP without offering other utility because, hey, they can just switch their spec on the fly. You can change “PvE or PvP” with “Healing or DPS”, or “Tank or DPS”, or whatever.

        Players have the right to choose, and in a utopian society that would work. But in the real world, implementing dual-spec would likely influence design choice for the duration of the game.

        • What if it doesn’t influence design choices for the game?… Then your argument is invalid.
          The fact that you can have 2 specs doesn’t change the nature of the talent trees.

          • Abner Ford says:

            Again, that’s an almost utopian way of thinking. It would be *great* if it didn’t influence the game design… but once you allow for people to switch things on the fly, you’re probably going to have to design encounters with that in mind. They’ll likely need to encounter potential talent builds with that in mind.

            Disregarding those situations happening as non-factors is much more foolish than disregarding the possibility of them *not* happening.

  5. MY preference is no dual speccing. I am firm believer in choice matters… which has always been a foundation principle for Bioware games.

    Again.. my opinion only

    • I totally agree. Besides, I don’t hear anyone complaining when they play through the Mass Effect games 20+ times to get a different experience.

      • So what your saying is that SWTOR is the same scale of story and development as Mass Effect! Im pretty sure there is over 300 hours of gameplay PER CLASS storyline to go through and while it will all be very enjoyable, do you really think you should have to re-role 4 times on one entire character just so you can play all 5 specs? Because that “make choices matter” to you. Do you not think you will want a different class? If so do you plan on playing multiple classes, multiple times just so you, one person in the community of SWTOR can feel as ease because dual spec just doesnt “make all your choices matter”?
        IMHO when you are considering a game this size, sometimes you have to sacrifice a little bit of “choices matter” to make the game enjoyable for the millions that will play the game.

    • Then choose not to dual spec even if it’s available to you. There’s a difference between choices mattering and having the game design restrict you to one play-style.

  6. Boogieman620 says:

    Each class has enough diversity anyway so duel-specs are not needed. Plus you will have your companions and teammates to play the other roles as well. Why spec a ranged tank with healing when your buddy can cover you, or just make some health packs. Don’t alter the character classes because the player is a spoiled brat. The whole style of BioWare is making hard choices and living with them throughout the game. I believe that includes your play style. Be a tank, or a healer, or a DPS. Find a solution for the characters faults that does not dumb down the advanced classes. That takes more skill and is more fun than making skill trees that can do everything at once.

    • Abner Ford says:

      I agree both with players being spoiled, as well as the fact that companions solve a big problem that dual-speccing is supposed to rectify. That is the problem with a healer or a tank needing to solo while farming or questing.

      Other situations, such as someone dropping or whatever, can be filled with companions or with good ol’ player ingenuity. The same thing that has been used for years in gaming, but seems to be going extinct.

      • Boogieman620 says:

        Exactly! Games are about fun problem solving and strategy development, to any degree. I think BioWare has given the game a lot of give with companion combat, team play and farming so you don’t have to be afraid of committing to a class. So man up and play your role. Ingenuity sums it all up.

    • You believe one’s play-style should be something someone has to live with throughout the game?? What are you, some kind of masochist? Variety is the spice of life.
      There are too many things wrong with your comment…

      • Abner Ford says:

        You seem to be quite familiar with MMOs, so you should know if someone decides to simply “not use it”, you’re inherently gimped if others are. Why take someone with you to a raid if they can only fill one role, while someone else can fill two roles?

        • Londrieved says:

          If the game plays like WoW at all, (and from what I’ve seen, this seems to be the case) then not having dual-spec won’t make or break you in a raid.

          Rift was designed around people changing their roles off and on. And even there, people don’t. Not really, it’s convenience during a open world event to fill what’s needed on the fly, but in dungeons I never saw it used at all.

          We never considered people gimped for not using their off-spec in WoW, either. I don’t expect every Paladin or Druid to have a healing and tank spec, or one or the other, and neither did anyone I knew.

          At least in my experience, your “If I won’t use it I will be gimped” concern in negligible at best.

  7. I really don’t see why people don’t want dual-spec. It’d be one thing if we could never respec, but we can, and we will.

    I do think that this is mostly a quality of life issue. Here’s a scenario for you.

    You’re dong an Operation and you’re healer has an emergency and has to leave. You check your guild roster and friends list and all you can find is another dps.

    You invite the dps and ask one of your other dps to go heals (assuming he has gear, etc). He now has to leave the group, make his way to a trainer, respec all of his talents, swap out all of the abilities on his toolbar, and then make his way back to the raid.

    With a dual-spec option that person just needs to click a button, change his gear, and your raid group is back to having fun.

    • Boogieman620 says:

      I understand the “convenience” of duel-specing in a raid but it hurts the immersion and strategy of combat. Raids are suppose to be hard and if your healer leaves, or even dies, the team should adjust it’s strategy with the resorces they have instead of changing the committed choices of the advanced classes training and combat style. Duel-specing is just pandering to players that are afraid to commit and solve problems with what they have available.

      • It doesn’t hurt the immersion at all really you are sticking with the same AC just being a little flexible in who you can invite to a group. Imagine that you are a healer and they only need two healers so you have to sit it out because of the role you chose… how is that enjoyable? The switching wouldn’t be during combat it would be out of combat like most games are. This means that you would still need to use your skill if the healer goes down. Your argument is not very valid in the respect of destroying game play rather it makes it so you can get in groups a little easier.

        The other thing is that there will always be a need to spec differently when going from PvP to PVE there will need to be more crowd control and things like that.

        Another argument about this would be if were something that would drive us to a healer role in groups why would i want to solo and have my companions be the BadA$$ in the group… thats not very heroic.

        Imagine someone on the battlefield who’s to say the combat medic can’t pick up a gun and shoot someone when needed. This would be the same in SWTOR.

        One last thing if it destroys your immersion then dont use it… really the bottom line.

        Rift knew the importance of this before the game came out and look at their combat/spec system… It rocks.

        • Boogieman620 says:

          I don’t think it’s safe to speculate on the wait times of the raide queues at this time.
          Giving a little flexibility to a few players is fine but when everyone jumps on it changes the game completely and cheapens it. So the game looses it’s foundation and falls apart.
          They have stated that PvP to PvE specing will not be a dramatic difference so again we can not speculate on how SWTOR will do it at this time; but I do realize the difference between the 2 in other games.

          Healers do have offenseive abilities. Using debuffs and some light DPS helps a lot. As far as being heroic I think every player doing their part is heroic regardless of your companion standing at the frontline while you heal.

          I did not play Rift so if they found a system for duel-specing that works and doesn’t have the effects that I have listed then I am all for it. If BioWare can make duel-specing work without hurting the game in the long run I may even play it. I just hope the developers and the players give the game time to settle in and grow before making those kinds of changes. Let the roots of gaming fundamentals take hold before expanding. The game will have a longer life. I think that is something we all want out SWTOR. Good argument buddy. :)

  8. Why not, as long as it’s in the same AC, every specs are aspects we should have trained in a way or the other. But I don’t get it for the AC’s respec. If I was an assassin, then a sage, i just forgot how to stealth, backstab? Like this, *woosh!* ? It doesnt make sense to me to unlearn in 2 seconds and for a handful of credits, something you trained for “years” as a jedi (or a trooper, a smuggler, a BH etcetc). There must be something more, a long quest taking the form of a re-training and we should keep our abilities or not even have the possibility to switch.

    In one phrase: this is definitly not something I really care about, and I don’t think it have to be a priority.

    • Firstly, assassins can not become sages, assassins are inquisitors, sages are consulars :P.
      Secondly if you’re trying to point out the lack of realism prevalent in the concept behind switching talents you’re making a foolish argument. Remember this is a computer game. Elements of realism are sacrificed to make the game more appealing for what it is, a game. If I were concerned with realism in this game I’d be wondering why my lightsabre didn’t take off my enemy’s head in one swing.
      Finally, it makes more sense for a shadow to forget stealth to become a sage as it does a sage to forget their specialised healing spells to learn specialised damage spells.

      • Yeah shadow, I was confused sorry. (Consulars and inquisitors doesnt attract me much.) But you’ve understood me.

        Sorry but for me it doesn’t make sense to unlearn abilities you have worked on for years just like this. If you are ok with that, good for you. But I’m not.

  9. (yeah I’m a little off topic here sorry :) but just a little. )

  10. It’s pretty obvious for me that Dual-spec is necessary. I don’t want to spend hour to search for a tank or a healer, and no, companions are not a possibility for me, I won’t give my life in the hands of a bot when things will matter (i.e. heroic FP).

    I want to use more than 1 role, if I’m specced to dps since lvl 1 and once I hit 40 I decide to try another role, having to recreate a toon to switch role is a very bad game design.

  11. While dual specing is nice it only works for people who don’t want to roll another character to earn that other role. Rift is great for this. We have so many specs that its easy to have one class heal or dps or tank and dps, etc.

    SWTOR is a different beast for the simple fact that Bioware wants you to play again to experience a different story. Its something that other MMO’s haven’t done.

    While I like dual specing in other games, I want to have multiple alts to experience the other stories that Bioware has gone to a lot of trouble to setup. To dual spec would take away from that so I sincerely hope they don’t do it.

  12. The only reason I want dual spec is so I can have both a PvP and PvE spec

    • If i’m not wrong, they said the same spec should work for both pve and pvp, the pvp skills are gained through you character not from your specialisations.

      • It doesn’t matter what the devs say in this case. What builds people use should be dtermined by the players not the dev “cookie cutter” builds. Dual speccing and saving builds within ACs makes sense, i see absolutely no negatives at all. Quality of life issue nothing else.

        • Abner Ford says:

          Often the players are the ones who find the cookie cutter builds. Developers typically don’t want to go through the time of creating talents or spells only to have them not used. It’s inevitable it’ll happen once you have testing done on levels the devs can’t simulate, but typically those cookie cutter builds get attacked by devs to eliminate them. They don’t want cookie cutter builds anymore than you or I (unless they’re lazy developers).

          I’m of the opinion, however, that implementing dual-spec actually lends to cookie cutters more easily. Developers can feel less inclined to address talent diversity and utility amongst all talents because, “Hey, the players are already getting some variety with having two different builds. They don’t need to experiment with various options when they already get some dynamic gameplay by switching back and forth between different playstyles.” I’d love for this to not happen, but I’ve seen results that make me feel like this is a sentiment that can permeate a game design.

          • But respeccing is ALREADY in the game. What you describe will happen regardless of dual spec or not. Its just a quality of life issue.

            Players will respec regardless of dual spec or not, wow, lotro, GW all good examples.

      • That’s probably true Korell, however for me it’s more of a style issue. For PvE I really love healing but when it comes to PvP I’d really rather do damage. My main will be a Sith Sorceror so I’d love to go Corruption for main spec and Madness for PvP.

  13. Choice matters… when it comes to storyline decisions. Like any other MMO, where will the flexibility be when you want to enter a flashpoint? All you need is that specialization that can heal but sadly you’ll have to wait.

    Many have stated dual spec’ing as a quality of life feature and I totally understand that argument. Especially when I have been (one of the many) players who are waiting on the sideline until that one particular class comes along. But what about companions? Well, yes, what about them? There are incentives to having REAL players in your groups, remember? Anyone else want more social points? I know I do. Companions will be great for soloing when you need help in a certain area.

    I think hard choices are still able to be a part of the game and make them have meaning. Let’s remember how the specialization works for SWTOR. You pick a class and then you pick a specialization. That specialization has 3 trees that points can go into. I was assuming that these points can easily be removed and re-selected… for a price. This is not dual spec’ing!! This is the flexibility of the specialization you selected.

    I DO NOT think that we should be able to change our main specialization. Why? Because it takes away from everyone’s individuality and now that we can turn into any of the 6 available options to our main class, we no longer have to depend on the community!

    We have to rely on each other to have a meaningful MMO experience. That’s why the trinity (healing/tank/dps) is such a blessing AND a curse. It works so well for reliance of each other and interaction within the community but it can also pigeonhole a game if they have poor design.

    Ultimately, I want to trust Bioware to make a great game and I think they will. But I also think that as a community we have an obligation to speak out about things that you want and it will be Bioware’s job to find that middle ground between their vision and the communities wants.

    • I mean to say ” Turn into any of the 4 available options to our main class.”

      I think both AC’s share the main class tree and then have 2 unique trees per AC.

      Going off memory since the main site is down :P

  14. I have to agree with Darkbrew.

    As long as respeccing is available, whether you can have a dual-spec or not is basically a non-issue. It’s the same thing as asking whether respeccing should be easy or difficult. Why would they want to make a feature like a respec difficult?

    If those who voted against dual-spec are not against respecs as a whole, I would dearly like to hear the reasoning for how the former is bad but the latter is good.

    • Boogieman620 says:

      I don’t really like respecing or duel-specing but I see respecing for a price is a fair consideration for players that either make a mistake or don’t like the skill tree they picked. If someone wants to respec multiple times for the sake of a raid and they have the credits to do it, so be it. It won’t happen so often that anyone would really notice. But duel-specing seems like a way for players to have their cake and eat it too. Filling 2 roles at once either makes your skills less effective because you won’t be a specialist, It COULD give an unfair advantage to players in PvP, It takes away from the team strategy for the sake of convenience which dumbs down the play in the long run. I would SWTOR at least a year to see what players do with their builds before they think about adding duel-specs. I hope that answers your question about why we are against duel-specing.

      • That misconception is precisely the problem with your argument. You can’t fill both roles at once. It’s one or the other. The dual spec does not allow you turn your character into some kind of 2-in-1 superman who jumps between specs at a whim. There is neither a PvP nor a PvE advantage to be gained from this.

        The argument respecs are okay because you have to waste time and pay – a most likely trivial sum – for them but dual specs are not, because they’re convenient, baffles me. I stand by my original viewpoint, that saying respecs are okay and dual specs are not is completely bizarre.

  15. I agree with everyone’s opinions in this matter. I see the plus side, and the down side to it. I like the idea of being able to switch on the fly and keep a group going. I also like it when players become known for what they do. Like when you see a certain player running around and can say, “I remember grouping with him/her, that player is a bad ass healer.” That happens a lot more when everyone is playing one role for a long period of time.

    I will be fine with it either way personally.

  16. I don’t want dual AC, I want dual talents, I want to change Lightning to Corruption whenevar it is needed.

  17. The answer is simple and easy: dual spec should be there since all other games have it and we should keep up with the competition.

    • So, on the same level, BW should offer paid race/name/gender/faction change because “the other game they should not compare to” does? I don’t think it’s a good argument.

    • I’m sorry, this has to be addressed. I’ll leave the Dual-spec argument alone, because, let’s all be honest here, it’s a matter of personal preference and no one is going to change anybody’s mind.

      However, the argument “dual spec should be there since all other games have it and we should keep up with the competition” is a little ridiculous, no?

      I hear the main “MMO King” will have pokemon and Kung-Fu Panda, I guess TOR needs it too!!!

      P.S. I absolutely guarantee that if TOR gave players the option for each class to have a skill that allowed an instant, self-revive with a 24hr CD, there would be a huge response from people saying that it is a “must have” skill and “absolutely necessary” and “quality of life” and would give you a million reasons why.

      Fact remains that those skills AREN’T necessary because MMO’s and players have been fully successful without them for years; they just make games easier. Those same people are just looking for an “I-Win” button that isn’t broken already.

      P.S.S. Whoops, look like my first sentence was a lie =p

  18. Trust me, once you start playing, you will want dual spec.

    You will never find a healer.. and to a lesser extent a tank without it.

    • No, because we have companions, and BW stated that we should be able to do the majority of the flashpoints without a healer (player), but we would have to process with care.

      And tanking should be more attractive as they manage to add some really interesting gameplay for pvp.

      And seriously, we have done donjons and raids for years on WoW without dual spec, and it was not a problem.

      • MrGrimord says:

        Companions will be useless once you run through heroic FP, pretty much sure they won’t be able to handle complex encounters as a healer or even just for being a dps.

        And if I get to lvl 50 and decide to change my role, I don’t want to have to start all over again. Plus, performing multiple roles improve the fun factor of a class.

        • They said a companion in bot mode (without micromanagement) would be like 60% of a real player. From my experience in heroic mode encounters, 60% is more than a lot of random healers I played with. :P At the end of WotLK, we were doing our dailies without a tank or a healer, just 5 DPS with crowd control and a good focus.

          But I see what you mean there, and while it’s not my style of gamming, I can respect that.

  19. I think they should allow you to have a dual spec within that advanced class, so Commandos could either dps or heal, or Assassins could dps and tank. If that Commando wants to tank or if that Assassin wants to shoot God-like bolts of lightning from his fingertips I think that should be a hassle, no choosing another role within that AC. In short you should be able to dual spec within your chosen AC but you should have to go through some hoops in order to change your AC

  20. ScytheNoire says:

    Not only is dual spec needed, it would be absolutely foolish not to have multi-speccing in an MMO today. It’s as needed as UI customization and cross-realm PvP match up. To not have these features is absolutely crying for problems.

    • MrGrimord says:

      Completly agree. Some features are the standard of any mmo nowadays. Most of them are the legacy of WoW, no matter what your opinion is about this game.

    • Abner Ford says:

      I can understand people wanting dual-spec available. UI Customization, certainly. Cross-realm PVP is, however, most certainly NOT necessary. I applaud BioWare for not wanting it in there, because I saw first-hand the very strong PvP community on my server in WoW killed when they put it in. At that point, the population imbalance made it almost a necessity, but part of the population imbalance was due to game imbalance in other areas that Blizzard implemented to begin with.

      If BioWare can have a game where there are largely balanced factions (because both have great things to offer players), then having Huttball as a safety valve in the event of a night when one faction simply isn’t queuing is plenty. Cross-faction competition should only be something for special events, nothing more, unless absolutely necessary.

  21. Honestly Immersion would be a problem without a way to respec… I don’t think it would be very enjoyable to role more than one of each class… if each AC had different stories then yeah i would like to double up on them but since it isn’t i would need to role the same class twice to get the feel of both AC’s. Now with that said since I would have to do that with each class why can’t I have it at least half way so i am not rolling 4 of each class to get everything out of that class… that seems a little excessive. I say 4 because you would have a DPS and Heal in one AC and the other AC would have a Tank and DPS trees… Sorry I like to experiment with my characters a little and find what is right for me… based on what was said is that they don’t prepare you to make that choice in the first 10 Levels. I shouldn’t have to have 32 characters to get everything out of a game.

    The other thing is that This is an MMO not a single player game. I have to live with my characters for a longer time than in single player games… I want to be able to switch things up when needed if nothing else to break up the monotony of the gameplay without a complete reroll of the same class. Honestly when you get to the end game content it is nice to be able to try new things. This is something that I will be paying a subscription to and I want to enjoy my time in it not struggle through it.

    I like the idea that my companion can pick up whatever I can’t but if i am a healer there will be times where i want to smash some faces. I don’t want to heal all the time. Especially if I am soloing through quests.

    most of the time i am in a group i will probably heal but when i solo i want to kill otherwise i am probably not having fun…

    I see some people say that it will hurt immersion. I say it will hurt immersion if they don’t include it in there. We can’t include you because we have all the healers we need and that is all you can do…

    I don’t think that you should be able to change them during combat. Which I see some have that concern but it might save you time looking for someone to fill a role if you can switch over to another. My guild looks like it will have a lot of tanks but healers and DPS will be something hard to find and without that ability to switch we are going to be hurting for those roles. I like doing healing and DPS an not so much on the tanking so I will be in almost every group in our guild but for those tanks they will have a hard time in our guild and they will need that DPS build to get in those groups for guild runs.

    I like to think of MMOs to be fluid and flexible… I see them as something that will have entertainment for a long period of time… I go to them and play them to save money… $60 a game is a lot for what 3 days of play…not affordable…MMOs are more affordable for me because i dont need to buy games every week to keep me busy and out of trouble.

    if you want to have the choice of locking yourself into a role then don’t do it and play on the RP servers… that is what they are there for….but I shouldn’t be punished for my wrong choice or rather for my role because some people want to lock everyone into one…..

    I also see some like to be known for the role they play… Honestly try Rift it has 5 specs that you can save at a time… I was known for my healing a friend of mine was known for the Tanking he did and the other guy was known for the DPS that he did…. even if they gave us flexibility in an MMO you will have those people that will be known for the roles they like to play and are good at it.

    I see in the future that if Dual-spec is not implemented in this game there will be a lot of people unhappy with it…

    can you imagine being a DPS role and trying to find a healer or tank at 3 or 4 in the morning… that sucked in all the other games even those that have 11 million people playing. I think it is best for the customer and i think that it should be in to keep people from getting bored.

    • I have nothing against dual spec as I’m perfectly for those kind of “quality of life” feature, but from a game that prone story and immersion, I don’t know how they would justify the fact that you forget and learn abilities just by clicking on one button.

      But I just think we can’t really discuss of that while we dont have any informations about any builds…

  22. I have never liked the dual spec, it always leads to issues in instances/raids. There have been several times when I have been in a group and couldn’t find a tank someone that was a dps(plate) was made to be a tank and had never done it before and caused several wipes. So no to the dual spec, if I spec dps then I am a dps, not off tank or heals. I you want to hybrid then do so or if you want to do multiple roles then have multiple toons.

  23. It shouldn’t exist. The idea of an MMO is to bring a community together to work together in order to finish storyline. The idea is not for a group of three people to be able to mold their own characters to their needs so they never have to talk to anyone.

    Dual Specing DESTROYS the community.

  24. Please, please stop being confused by what dual spec is.

    They have never said they are going to allow dual AC. The most they have said is that they may allow you to make a change if you screw up or whatever but the father past level 10 you are the harder it will be. This is because of the massive customer service issue that woudl be created without the option.

    Dual spec only applies to having more than one talent build in your AC that you can switch between. For eample a player could have a pve and a pvp spec, or a tank and a dps spec – whatever is allowed in your ac.

    You can already do this, but it requires you to visit an npc in the city and respend your points. Dual spec simply allows you to swap between two saved talent builds.

    Again, dual spec has absolutly nothing to do with changing your AC.

  25. We are going to have to make a choose every 5 minutes when it comes to story, a choice that will be completely irreversible and in most cases, difficult.

    I wouldn’t mind one less difficult choice when picking a spec (or even advanced class). I say dual spec would be a welcome addition.

  26. i say no to switching AC but being able to switch within AC is a must for me

  27. It is absolutely hilarious to see people complain about dual spec that clearly have no idea what it is! Lmao :-)

    • Abner Ford says:

      Care to elaborate?

      • Its half the posts complaing about dual AC and half the posts actually talking about dual specs. They are totally different topics that even the original post gets muddied and ends up confusing people about.

        Dual spec is not the same as Dual AC.

        Dual spec = having more than one talent build (in your AC) that you can swap between without visiting the reset npc (that is already in game).

        Dual AC = the ability to change ACs on the fly – something that has be rather clearly stated isn’t going to happen – in fact they have even suggested that is will be progressivly harder the farther you get from level 10 and changing at all may be impossible past level 20.

  28. You want a cost for dual spec? If you cannot change your AC (and it sounds to me as if this matters most) without going through some annoyance, then that is the cost. Rift and WoW let you change your playstyle or role by pushing a button. That doesn’t sound the same as what you describe for SWTOR’s system.

  29. I would like to have dual spect as long as it is withing the same AC

  30. No to dual specs – This was just one of the gimmicks and dumbing down of WoW that helped ruin that particular game this game does not need to be dumbed down lets keep it challenging and thus keep the silly kids out that ruin MMOs and the communities.

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